Still here since 1996 serving BritBike enthusiasts. "Colonel fair is fair: if I nail Hotlips and punch Hawkeye can I go home too?". Check the state of the points surfaces. At least I assume so: My timing light (seen in photo clamped to plug wire #1) illuminates correctly when plug #1 is unscrewed from the engine and sparks, but it does not light up when the plug is screwed into the engine. Upgrade your membership to Magneto coils are usually a long time dying. specially-selected, top-quality, British-made Do similar tests with the HT lead(s) and the plug-cap(s). sequences illustrating the importance of This can mask a fault on these cars as the vehicle will continue to run until the other fails. One of the plug caps should give a reading which is substantially the same as the reading you obtained in the internal HT continuity section. 0000005952 00000 n I was bench testing by tuning the mag slowly by hand, without the impulse coupling attached, so 1/4" is a good distance. After 20 miles the ignition is down to zero. 0000001184 00000 n DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS IF YOU ARE FITTED WITH A PACEMAKER, OR HAVE A HEART CONDITION, OR IF YOU REALLY HATE ELECTRIC SHOCKS. If it does not jump 3/16" it probably will not fire a cylinder under compression. 0000006372 00000 n With Lucas devices, the fixing hole at one end of the contact-breaker spring is slotted so that the effective length of the spring can be adjusted as necessary. Lucas Magneto 1930 - 1940. Wico-XH Magneto Won't Spark | Smokstak Antique Engine Community After you get your spark strong enough, then worry about cap and rotor. Norsk We recommend using non-resistive (copper) cable and unsuppressed plug caps. I have seen that a lot on FM mags. patterns for shims, gaskets and bearing British motorcycles on e-Bay North America, Powered by UBB.threads PHP Forum Software 7.7.5. Turn the armature in its proper direction of rotation until the contact-breaker points are just starting to open. Brightspark Magnetos is now able to offer a remagnetising service, using our specially-developed remagnetising and measuring equipment to help you restore your magneto to tip-top condition. equipment. Therefore, taking the sparking plug(s) out of the engine, laying them on the cylinder head and checking whether the magneto will produce a spark at kickstart speeds is not a sufficient test. Copyright 2023, Antique Automobile Club of America. Lister D Magneto Lucas RS1 full rebuild but still no spark Coil Fail. A lot of carbon dust on the inside of the pick-up indicates that the brush is too soft, in which case it should be replaced with a brush of the correct grade. Post in the forum instead. To help magneto owners look after their magnetos Powered by Invision Community. If necessary, dress the points on a fine stone. Deutsch If the magneto wont produce a spark across a 6 mm (or 4 mm) gap at leisurely kicking speeds, and if youve satisfied yourself with all the other checks described earlier, then it probably needs a more complete overhaul. Trouble starting my 1924 Citroen engine. The Magneto Guys - Vintage, Veteran, Classic Magneto Repairs Lucas Magnetos We have overhauled and repaired these Lucas magnetos and then returned them to their owners. However, for magnetos without a safety gap, if the armature is spun with nothing, or with a large gap, connected to the pick-up, it may cause a breakdown of the insulation around the HT winding or of the slip ring. Contact-breaker Re-installation and Points Setting. Repeat with clean pieces of petrol-moistened rag, until the rag comes out clean. 2,330 views Oct 18, 2020 16 Dislike Share Air Fuel Mixologist 1.31K subscribers I purchased this Lister D petrol (gasoline). not load correctly in the translated versions of the pages. Having set the timing with the points opening on one cam lobe, you should check that it is also correct with the points opening on the other cam lobe. detailed instructions in our 'condensectomy' magnetos available for sale or in If it is significantly lower, then there is probably a short-circuit in the contact-breaker assembly or in the armature. With Lucas devices, if it fouls the contact-breaker spring, the contact-breaker assembly will need to be removed and the effective length of the spring increased as necessary. NEW I wonder if hand-cranking might get it going. The air gap allows the voltage to build on the rotor until it is high enough to jump the gap thus it actually magnifies it somewhat. %PDF-1.5 % . On the very first BSA I ever owned, I sufferred the same problem. pages on how to do that. The gap will widen as the wire ends melt further apart and soon the adjacent turns will be affected so the coil will eventually fail. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Please note: THEY ARE NOT FOR SALE! To have the discharge go arc back into the coil itself or the mag housing causes some serious damage. The engine needed some attention, which it has now received, but I had to take the magneto off. I did run the rpm up with my lathe to 1,000 rpm & it easily jumped 5/8", so were good there, SMOKSTAK is a Registered Trade Mark in the U.S. Twin sparks provide two flame fronts within the cylinder, these two flame fronts decreasing the time needed for the fuel charge to burn. As the points begin to open, point spacing is initially such that the voltage across the primary coil would arc across the points. An ignition magneto (also called a high-tension magneto) is an older type of ignition system used in spark-ignition engines (such as petrol engines). Because it requires no battery or other source of electrical energy, the magneto is a compact and reliable self-contained ignition system, which is why it remains in use in many general aviation applications. And a f-ing video! Lucas SR2 Magneto - Hitchcocks Forum 0000000783 00000 n Magneto advice - lucas rf4 in vedette engine | YBW Forum ZK~!c. Magnetic - Check magnetism and Remagnetise magneto body. i have had 3 done here by ed strain that included rebuild with remagnatized body for a little more than $200.00. - there's a lot of stuff in our frequently information aggregated from many sources. A second coil, with many more turns than the primary, is wound on the same iron core to form an electrical transformer. troubleshooting your magneto. in the translations. 0000001015 00000 n If youre giving your magneto a thorough check over, we suggest you tackle jobs in the order shown. Dansk Some original units are still in service today. [3] The capacitor's function is similar to that of a snubber as found in a flyback converter. If you have a plug tester available that adds simulated compression pressure (using air pressure) to the end of the exposed plug while firing voltage to it you will see the more pressure the higher kv the plug needs to fire correctly. That then produces a gap of about 4 mm between the centre electrode and the screw-threaded bit of the plug body. item. asked questions, some of which isn't to be If you can see the slip-ring through the pick-up hole in the main housing, check that the brass ring or segment of the slip-ring is brass coloured (albeit possibly a bit dirty or tarnished), but not completely black. It's a 6v system, so the starter turns rather slowly (maybe 80rpm), but I think it should be fast enoughto start. Measure the resistance with the two probes of your multi-meter shorted together. If the brush is missing or there is only a very short piece in the pick-up, the brush (or part of it) may have come out and dropped to the bottom of the magneto housing. She was factory fitted with a Morris Vedette MKII engine which has a lucas rf4 magneto. Don't want this buried as I 'm hoping for some possible answers today. Can you rig up real cables? The likely culprits are: Set the timing of the ignition in accordance with the machines handbook. A simple magneto (an electrical generator using permanent magnets) is able to produce relatively low voltage electricity, however it is unable to produce the high voltages required by a spark plug as used in most modern engines (aside from diesel engines). Are suppressors and resistor sparking plugs OK to use with magnetos? If you are having trouble with your ignition system we recommend that you first change your spark plugs and HT leads. classic owners. performance. DIY Magneto Maintenance and Troubleshooting If it has any unusual marks, try to work out what caused them and whether anything should/could be done about them. Likes: 260. scotland. If the magneto is fitted with, or about to be fitted with, a Brightspark EasyCap, you can perform some basic checks on the EasyCap. Put 2 hours of flawless time on the bench. When screwed in the head, however, the plugs make no spark. If you have an auto-ranging meter, the reading might jump about a bit on the way while it changes scales. Could be bad parts if spark just gets a lot weaker but if spark totally goes away when cap and rotor are installed, be sure the when you install them it does not short out the primary, give the rotor a closer ground to jump to or hold the points open, etc. In the Lucas MO1, it is on one side, adjacent the contact-breaker housing. Measure the resistance between the magneto body and terminal in one and then the other of the the plug caps. Dansk At atmospheric pressure, the voltage required to strike a spark across the 0.020 (0.5 mm) gap of a sparking plug is far less than the voltage required at the elevated pressure that the plug experiences in the engines cylinder. I would narrow the plug gaps to .020" and see what happens. Fantastic! [7] Ignition magnetos were soon was used on most cars, for both low voltage systems (which used secondary coils to fire the spark plugs) and high voltage magnetos (which fired the spark plug directly, similar to induction coil ignition). Excellent "how-to". degrade with age. Nederlandse Please get in contact if you know anything about aerograph compressors especially if you have technical drawings.Last, but not least, if you want to receive notifications when more videos in this series are uploaded please subscribe to the channel. fitted, the EasyCap becomes a routine service 0000000016 00000 n Thanks mmcdonald, all good info. Even if the points surfaces look good, clean them with fine emery cloth to remove any oxide layer. The older term "high-tension" means "high-voltage".[1]. heavier the better. With the points fully open, adjust the points gap to 0.012 (0.3 mm). There is no wire hooked up to the cap. Links to some interesting trailer If sloppy, consider fitting a new moving point (Lucas), bush (BTH), or pivot post. We always replace the capacitor during a repair as experience has show us that the capacitor tends to be the most unreliable part. Remove the pick-up(s) from the magneto taking care not to mislay the gasket(s). In early magnetos the magnets were formed from a cobalt material and had to be remagnetised if the armature was ever removed. With the Lucas KN1, it is under the identification tag. anglais, votre convenance. The reading should be between 0.5 and 0.7 ohms greater than your first reading. Re-install the contact-breaker assembly, ensuring that it registers properly with the armature shaft. If you have identified the magneto as the source of your ignition fault send it to us for repair. The voltage generated in the primary winding is a product of its velocity through the magnetic field and the strength of that field, so the condition of the magnet is vital for the correct performance of the magneto. A capacitor is placed across the points which absorbs the energy stored in the leakage inductance of the primary coil, and slows the rise time of the primary winding voltage to allow the points to open fully. I was hoping that some of the experts might help me with a magneto problem. 85 0 obj<>stream This is really common on original units as the Lucas condensers were made from wax paper and foil. March 21, 2020 in Technical. Nous I tested the HT wire and spark plug and both are fine. Undo the contact-breaker centre-screw and remove the contact-breaker assembly. Contact Us - DO NOT EMAIL CAR QUESTIONS. To contact injunmort simply click on his name and the forum will display his e-mail address, Helge. (Japanese) To all you guys with Lucas magnetos with problems, get ready to see it fully functional for about $23 shipped, along with a little work in your garage. Franaise A short circuit absorbs all the power, hence no output or spark. Checked it over and found no spark. The permanent magnet can be static, as in the classical horse-shoe form, with the transformer windings rotating between the poles, or sometimes the magnet is mounted on the armature and rotates within the core of a static winding. In the type known as a shuttle magneto, the engine rotates a coil of wire between the poles of a magnet. I'd need to install it in the chassis or rig up something to do that. This was examined earlier. Please phone or email for details. This video details the work done to the magneto so far. I purchased this Lister D petrol (gasoline) engine that came on a trolley with an Aerograph air compressor. Put a smear of grease on the lobe(s) of the cam. BTH mags utilized condensers made from mica. 0000001569 00000 n [5] Therefore, some magnetos have an impulse coupling, a springlike mechanical linkage between the engine and magneto drive shaft which "winds up" and "lets go" at the proper moment for spinning the magneto shaft. Pick-up brushes of the highest quality are also available, of the correct grade to avoid carbon deposits on the slip ring. Nice work. rectifiers (and wiring diagrams) of use to all I forgot about this. Really need a coil tester. themselves. If the magnet is full strength and the spark at the points looks right then I would still say you have a coil problem with some shorted turns or something. You should not feel any tingles in your hand. Thanks. or Translations provided by the Google 0000002409 00000 n If the coil has been in service since the magneto was new there is a good chance the insulation has started to break down, allowing voltage to track. only for magnetos, but also classic motorcycle I think it may be do to condensor failure. Now that the slip ring has dried off, replace the pick-up(s). things we think matter when it comes to magnetos and. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. i totally agree. If you can't get even 1/4", I would be worried it would not work under the stress of being in the combustion chamber. Check the state of the heel of the moving-point assembly. I have seen several condensers during that time whichwork for the half but will not generate the field collapse andfire the plug . Turn the armature in its proper direction of rotation until the contact-breaker points are just starting to open on the other cam lobe. replace it with an EasyCap. -- misfiring, particularly at higher revs and fully open throttle, or when opening the throttle. Learn how and when to remove this template message, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ignition_magneto&oldid=1150712364, Short description is different from Wikidata, Articles with unsourced statements from January 2023, Articles needing additional references from January 2023, All articles needing additional references, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, This page was last edited on 19 April 2023, at 18:38. -- Tickover, pulling away, and low-speed running erratic. We would therefore strongly advise against ever trying to make a magneto strike a spark across a gap of anything in excess of 7.5 mm in fresh air. I also needed a new coil for it which I installed, cleaned the mag up and replaced any bits it needed. grade to avoid carbon deposits on the slip A forum community dedicated to Jockey motorcycle owners and enthusiasts. There has been requests lately on the board for more tech stuff. The original coil may be reusable, although it is susceptible to faults - as described in our section: common problems on magnetos. We will check all the parts of the magneto for faults and will provide a firm quotation for a repair along with a description of the magneto repair required. While holding it in that position, tighten the centre screw, but do not use undue force. Just to reinforce a point here of something very well done that you did in the how-to: when you're testing a mag like this, ALWAYS have the plug wires hooked up with a gap (or plugs) to ground so that energy has somewhere to go. I'm working on a Lucas Mag right now for the first time and this is extremely helpful. Joined: Oct 2009. If your multimeter can measure capacitance, the reading should be within 10% of: 150 nF (0.15 uF) for the C01, C02, C03, C05 and CU/150 EasyCaps; 220 nF (0.22 uF) for the C06, C07 and CU/220 EasyCaps. quality are also available, of the correct Armoto LtdRegistered & Trading Address:Unit 26, M1 Commerce Park, Markham Lane, Duckmanton, Chesterfield S44 5HSTelephone: 01246 826667 | sales@armoto.co.ukRegistered in England Company No. How to 'Kill' a Lucas KVF Magneto? - Vincent H.R.D. Owners Club Forum i'm an asshole, you probably shouldn't listen to me. Take a look at some of the equipment we If there are any, repeat until the paper comes out clean. It is almost a given that a Lucas armature will require replacement if in the original condition. Check the state of the contact return spring and replace if broken. Points and contacts cleaned, and wires tested for continuity. if it doesn't jump 3/16" double check the points to see if they are shiny clean the whole face of each point. Great post! LUCAS MAGNETO TROUBLESHOOTING | JRC Engineering, Inc. 0000002567 00000 n One or more times per revolution, just as the magnet pole moves away from the coil and the magnetic flux begins to decrease, a cam opens the contact breaker (called "the points" in reference to the two points of a circuit breaker) and interrupts the current. For example, in the Lucas K1F and K2F, the earth brush is located on top inboard of the main mounting flange. If there is a main-body earth brush and it is accessible, remove it and check that the spring is good, that the brush is free to move in the holder and that the brush is not unduly worn in length or diameter. Take a look [2] An ignition magneto also includes an electrical transformer,[2] which converts the electricity to a higher voltage (with the trade-off being a corresponding reduction in the output current).[2]. [5], The first person to develop the idea of a high-tension magneto was Andr Boudeville,[citation needed] but his design omitted a condenser (capacitor). further selection that can be reconditioned on and other magneto parts. demand to 'perfectly functional' or 'as-new' Measure the resistance between the magneto body and terminal in the plug cap. First test is to take the plug caps off the HT leads and position the ends of the HT leads 1/4" away from the casting. With BTH devices, if the moving point assembly fouls the eccentric pin, the pin will need to be adjusted. For example: Check as best you can that the brush is actually making contact with the track on which it runs. This disables the magneto to reduce the risk of electric shock and fire. Brightspark Magnetos Ltd disclaims responsibility for any If nobody is available, then you can make a test plug by removing the earth electrode from an old, but functional, sparking plug. Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. JavaScript is disabled. With other models, it may be inaccessible while the magneto is in situ, for example underneath. You need to confirm that the condenser has failed AND that replacing it will solve the problem. Then check that the contact-breaker assembly is not wobbly on the end of the shaft. Built into the case of the magneto are magnets, permanent magnets. Sign up for a new account in our community. Under construction, so far showing video This was diagnosed as the cam ring not being properly timed to the magnetic poles. As the voltage of the primary winding rises to several hundred volts,[3][4] the voltage on the secondary winding rises to several tens of thousands of volts, since the secondary winding typically has 100 times as many turns as the primary winding.[3]. Since the beginning of World War I in 1914, magneto-equipped aircraft engines have typically been dual-plugged, whereby each cylinder has two spark plugs, with each plug having a separate magneto system. Photo-sequences of stripping and Rotate the armature and check that the contact-breaker assembly does not foul its housing. What else could possibly be grounding this? This causes the electromagnetic field in the primary coil to collapse rapidly. An ignition magneto (also called a high-tension magneto) is an older type of ignition system used in spark-ignition engines (such as petrol engines). Nearly all magnetos have a gasket between the pick-up and the magneto body (a) to prevent water entry and (b) to set the correct clearance between the pick-up holder and the slip ring. The irony here is that usually these magnetos fail to spark. You must log in or register to reply here. If everything were perfect and clean, the resistance should be infinite (OL). <]>> The other plug cap should give a reading that is infinite (OL) or extremely high. Regrettably, some Acrobat .pdf files might If you need more information, or wish to order by post or pay over the phone, please ring: 01273 913181. detailed guide to maintaining and Language links are at the top of the page across from the title. Do not skimp on quality with pick-up brushes. You are probably loosing amperage through the jumper cables. The result in high resistance will reduce the current flow in the primary winding and reduce the magnetic flux which adversely effects the secondary winding output voltage. Turn the armature in its proper direction of rotation until the contact-breaker points are just starting to open on one of the cam lobes. Thanks again. Check the cam surface. downloadable drawings for those of you who If you havent already done so, undo the contact-breaker centre-screw and remove the contact-breaker assembly. a separate spring-loaded holder (Lucas) or hidden at the back of the contact breaker plate (BT-H). Translate service. The wires are copper core with non resistor caps. Ignition - Check Spark strength, Spark timing and . In that case, it it best to dismantle the magneto to retrieve it. The points gaps with the heel at the centre of each lobe of the cam should be the same, but a small difference is inconsequential. Also, with the points open, check that there is an open circuit between them; if fitted with a Brightspark EasyCap, it will take a little while for the resistance reading to climb off the scale. but enjoy doing it, with confidence, relying on the To maintain a dedicated website that covers the or. If it is several thousand ohms, it indicates that the HT lead is resistive and/or the plug cap is fitted with a suppressor resistor. The contact points which are mounted onto the end of the armature shaft, used to time the breaking of the primary winding current, will become pitted and worn, especially so if the capacitor is faulty. i found that is a cheaper, easier way to go than doing it my self with refurbished parts. Once In a modern installation, the magneto only has a single low tension winding which is connected to an external ignition coil which not only has a low tension winding, but also a secondary winding of many thousands of turns to deliver the high voltage required for the spark plug(s). wish to make the required puller tool [7] Ignition magnetos were largely replaced by ignition coils once batteries became common in cars, since a battery-operated coil can provide a high-voltage spark even at low speeds, making starting easier.[8]. Values vary considerably depending on the make and model of magneto and who wound it. Any high tension magneto will have way more than 7 ohms resistance on the secondary circuit. Replace the main-body earth brush, if applicable. With the mag on the engine, there is a spark at all 4 plugs . Coil may still function somewhat and not completely failed but ratio of turns lost because of insulation breakdown. Lucas workshop instructions - magnetos Library Robert Bosch Documentation American Bosch workshop instructions Patents Books and learnd papers Workshop instructions - Lucas magnetos N1, KN1, K1F, K2F, KVF MO1L, MN2L Redesigned contact breaker for ring cam models SR magnetos (general info.) The resistance between the two sides of the circuit board (with your fingers well clear) should climb to in excess of 2 G (2000 M). This Lucas KVF magneto was rebuilt 7,000 miles ago and failed at around 3,000 miles with loss of spark on one cylinder. If not provided with a safety gap, there is a risk of expensive damage. Lucasworkshopinstructions-otherstuff. slip rings and pick-ups for Lucas and BTH 0000009971 00000 n These are prone to deterioration and the cause of many ignition faults. I know a great starting engine will fire a plug with 3/16" gap when external of a cylinder. load correctly in the translated versions of the pages. The magneto gives a good spark when spun by hand or when kicked over with the plugs removed. In the late 1890s, English engineer Frederick Richard Simms and German engineer Robert Bosch developed the first practical high-tension magneto. to suit the needs of a customer. If there is a lubricating felt, soak it in oil. Fit the magneto gear to the magneto shaft and finger tighten the nut ONLY until the gear is snug on the tapered shaft. It appears that magnetio does not have in impulse coupling which means the engine must turn over much faster to develop as hot a spark as if there was an impulse. Electrical - Armature windings, Condenser, Slip ring, Points and Bushes. (Chinese) I do not know it all but I will try to help. I'll try the 3/16" gap test. Put it on bike, timed, no spark. Lucas Magneto Bearing Shim Pack 15mm | E15 | N3048 | K1F | SR | K2F . classic vehicles generally. This will not stop the coil from working. Lucas vertical magneto in good condition and sparking. 0000007301 00000 n I would also welcome information on some of the things shown in the video such as the handles on the trolley. If I was working on it, first I would want a 5/16" air gap consistent spark minimum from the coil terminal to ground. Translations provided by the Google Translate service. Main-body Earth Brushes and Bearing Insulators: Some magnetos have an earth brush between the contact-breaker back-plate and the contact breaker housing. With twin- or multi-cylinder magnetos, and some single-cylinder magnetos, the brass is a segment, rather than a complete ring, and you may need to rotate the armature in order to be able to see it. Oil on the inside of the pick-up is usually indicative of a failure of the magnetos oil seal, in which case the magneto will need a more complete overhaul. LUCAS Magneto check "How To" - Jockey Journal Forum With a twin, repeat with the other pick-up. If your magneto does not have an EasyCap but it fitted with a condenser buried in the armature, then it is impossible to check the condition of the condenser, while the armature is assembled, without specialised equipment. A small number of electrons is ever present and over years or decades this flow carves out an ever widening pathway through the insulation. It shouldnt be very many ohms, and certainly less than 30 ohms. ring.
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